Shifting Gears / Clutch / Transmission --- How to operate

[7653]

Hello --

Some of you may remember me for asking for help on how to get my GZ 250 running. After months of delays (had to leave for military training, new school) I finally brought it to a shop to get fixed. The carb had to be cleaned and that was that.

I just started riding recently on the bike but I have been practicing on a motorscooter before that. I never realized how much more complicated the clutch makes things.

I still don't seem to understand how the clutch / shifting gears works. I have read the users' manual (pg 29-30) and read various articles online, but have yet to find some comprehensive explanation for how shifting gears works.

I have many more questions as I learn more, but here are the first few I have:

1. Does pushing the shift lever down ALWAYS put the bike into first gear (whether it is currently in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th? Or does pushing the shift lever down only move the gear down one (for example from 3rd to 2nd, or 5th to 4th)?

2. When I try to start up the bike sometimes, I engage the throttle and release the clutch.. If I release the clutch too soon the entire bike turns off. I know I am supposed to release the clutch slowly and am still learning to, but is the bike SUPPOSED TO TOTALLY turn off if I make this mistake?

3. How do I shift up while in first gear? Can I just pull the clutch, push the shift lever up twice, release the clutch, and it will be in third gear? Or do I have to pull clutch, shift lever up, release clutch, pull clutch, shift lever up, release clutch, to get it in third gear? Do I have to pull and release the clutch for each gear I shift? Or can I shift it multiple times for one pull/release of the clutch?

Thank you.

[JWR]

Hello --

I have many more questions as I learn more, but here are the first few I have:

1. Does pushing the shift lever down ALWAYS put the bike into first gear (whether it is currently in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th? Or does pushing he shift lever down only move the gear down one (for example from 3rd to 2nd, or 5th to 4th)?
YES

2. When I try to start up the bike sometimes, I engage the throttle and release the clutch.. If I release the clutch too soon the entire bike turns off. I know I am supposed to release the clutch slowly and am still learning to, but is the bike SUPPOSED TO TOTALLY turn off if I make this mistake?

Make sure the kickstand is up.
Sit on the bike and ease off of the clutch, then pull in back in to get a feel of when it catches and moves forward

3. How do I shift up while in first gear? Can I just pull the clutch, push the shift lever up twice, release the clutch, and it will be in third gear? Or do I have to pull clutch, shift lever up, release clutch, pull clutch, shift lever up, release clutch, to get it in third gear? Do I have to pull and release the clutch for each gear I shift? Or can I shift it multiple times for one pull/release of the clutch?

Yes each gear is a separate action.

Thank you.

[Water Warrior 2]

If you haven't already be sure to pick up a copy of Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. His knowledge and experience is great.

[Rookie Rider]

And take a first time learners course........... fast !!

[5th_bike]

. When I try to start up the bike sometimes, I engage the throttle and release the clutch.. If I release the clutch too soon the entire bike turns off. I know I am supposed to release the clutch slowly and am still learning to, but is the bike SUPPOSED TO TOTALLY turn off if I make this mistake?

Well it's not "supposed" to, but it just happens - you see, the clutch couples the engine to the wheel. if the wheel is not turning and the engine does not produce sufficient power to get it going (when you release the clutch too soon) the engine will stop working below a certain rpm.

Do I have to pull and release the clutch for each gear I shift? Or can I shift it multiple times for one pull/release of the clutch?

Only when you are slowing down fast, you can hold the clutch in and downshift several times i.e. you don't have to release the clutch after going from 5 to 4, 4 to 3, 3 to 2 etc. But each shift is a separate foot action.
The gear you're in should always match your speed though - you don't want to be going down the road driving 50 mph with the clutch in and in 2nd gear because if you should accidentally release the clutch, the rear wheel will slip and you will loose control over the bike.

[mrlmd1]

Read the owner's manual.
Take an MSF course.
Get all the gear - helmet, armored jacket, gloves.

[7653]

I just wanted to restate what I read to make sure I am understanding the answers to my questions correctly (please correct me if I misunderstood) and add some follow up questions:

1. Yes, pushing the shift lever down ALWAYS makes you go into first gear. For example, you can go from fifth gear, push down the shift lever once, and go to first gear.

2. Practice gently releasing the clutch to stop the engine from turning off. Follow-up question: Ummm, the thing I fear most is: What if I am eventually a proficient rider, I go on a big road/intersection and I release the clutch too soon while starting the bike? I fear the engine turning off and getting myself screwed. Do any of you have any experience with this?

3. Yes, I have to pull and release the clutch for EACH gear I go up.

Follow-up question for 5th bike: Your answer to this doesn't make sense to me. I thought I just got told by JWR (see his post above) that pushing the shift lever down ALWAYS puts your gear into first, even if it is from fifth gear. If this is true, then how is it possible to go from fifth gear to fourth, fourth to third?

Thanks.

[alantf]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Each push up moves to the next higher gear.

Each push down moves to the next lower gear.

The only exception to this is 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 1st, which will need 2 pushes, as neutral is a position between them.

Don't forget to ALWAYS set off in 1st, increase the revs (and hence, speed) then shift up the gears, one by one, progressively, until you get to the speed/gear that you need. :2tup:

[blaine]

The only exception to this is 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 1st, which will need 2 pushes, as neutral is a position between them.
:??: You can go from 1st to 2nd with one push and 2nd to 1st with one push.The tricky part is finding neutral.It is much easier to find neutral by gently lifting up from 1st till the green neutral light comes on.It is very easy to bypass neutral & go into 2nd gear.
:) :cool:

[mrlmd1]

You will not learn this effectively from asking questions like you have been doing on a forum like this. Find the nearest Motorcycle Safety Foundation basic motorcycling course and take it ASAP, unless you want to seriously hurt yourself and your bike. From your questions you have almost no knowledge of how any of this works and you need hands on, in person instruction from a qualified, certified instructor, not grasping for help on here. And read - WW's suggestion of Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough is one of the best places to start.

[alantf]

The only exception to this is 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 1st, which will need 2 pushes, as neutral is a position between them.
:??: You can go from 1st to 2nd with one push and 2nd to 1st with one push.The tricky part is finding neutral.It is much easier to find neutral by gently lifting up from 1st till the green neutral light comes on.It is very easy to bypass neutral & go into 2nd gear.


What I was actually getting at (and not explaining very well :blush: ) was that each gear is a click away from the next, but 1st to 2nd is click click. I still manage, occasionally, to go from 1st to neutral when I set off without having my mind 100% on it.

[Water Warrior 2]

Alantf, just chalk it up to a senior moment an keep smiling. :lol:

[Rookie Rider]

Lmao, WW

[Rookie Rider]

What i do when im in 1st is :: let off throttle, squeeze clutch, shift up once (2nd gear) give gas as i slowly let clutch out. Repeat for each up shift. The same for downshifting except push down on lever with foot. Hope this helps.

[Rookie Rider]

What i do when im in 1st is :: let off throttle, squeeze clutch, shift up once (2nd gear) give gas as i slowly let clutch out. Repeat for each up shift. The same for downshifting except push down on lever with foot. Hope this helps.

[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

GZ, well done and thoroughly explained.

[Rookie Rider]

I thought i explained it pretty thorough for a newbie :/

[5th_bike]

Follow-up question for 5th bike: Your answer to this doesn't make sense to me. I thought I just got told by JWR (see his post above) that pushing the shift lever down ALWAYS puts your gear into first, even if it is from fifth gear. If this is true, then how is it possible to go from fifth gear to fourth, fourth to third?

Thanks.
Well others already answered your question I think - pulling in the clutch is one thing. Pulling in the clutch disengages the coupling between the engine and the wheel.

Shifting is another thing. Shifting selects another pair of cogwheels inside the gearbox such that the rpm ratio between the engine and the rear wheel changes. You shift one gear at a time ([1 to 2] and [2 to 1] via neutral being the exception). But you can hold in the clutch, and use your foot to shift up or down all 5 gears - you don't have to release the clutch and pull it back in to shift to the next gear.

That said - you can't switch from gear 5 to gear 3 with one movement of the foot. You need to push the shifter down twice for that.
So one push down with your left foot will only get you in first gear: a) from neutral b) from 2nd gear (whereas pushing down gently will get you in neutral from 2nd gear). You will learn by practicing this.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

[Gz Rider]

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[7653]

Thank you for the responses. Especially from Gz Rider, your answers really cleared things up.

Today was my third time riding in a sem-controlled environment (quiet street or parking lot) and I picked up a better understanding of the clutch from operating it.

Thanks to the input from this forum I WILL:
1. Sign up for the MSF Course (I looked at the local MSF website today but none of their classes fit my schedule yet)
2. Read Proficient Motorcycling (I looked it up at my local library and they are all loaned out, but I will get it when there is one free)
3. Fully read the manual

UNTIL THEN... Please tolerate my newbie questions until I have been afforded the opportunity to take/read those trainings.

So here is my newest newbie question I formulated today:

A) How can I prevent the engine from turning off when I stop for a stop sign or red light?

Today I did the following to stop: Pull in clutch, shift from second gear to first, release clutch, let go of throttle, brake, stop. The engine turned off after I stopped and my speedometer went to zero.

I was able to keep the engine on during a stop when I did the following: Pull in clutch, shift from second gear to first, release clutch, let go of throttle, brake, stop, pull clutch, engage throttle gently while brake is still on (still stopped), then I released clutch to drive off again. Is this the right way to do it? Am I supposed to be pulling on the clutch, brake, and engaging the throttle gently during a full stop to stop the engine from shutting down? If so, this doesn't seem very efficient...

HELP!!!

[cayuse]

short answer is:
Once you stop, you should be in 1st gear, pulling on the clutch and using one of the brakes. I was taught to use the rear brake (right foot); it gives the throttle hand a rest.
You shouldn't need to engage the throttle at all. If your engine dies with the clutch pulled in you need to tune the idle; maybe it's simply set too low.
Good luck!

[7653]

short answer is:
Once you stop, you should be in 1st gear, pulling on the clutch and using one of the brakes. I was taught to use the rear brake (right foot); it gives the throttle hand a rest.
You shouldn't need to engage the throttle at all. If your engine dies with the clutch pulled in you need to tune the idle; maybe it's simply set too low.
Good luck!

I suspect it may be the idle speed. Because sometimes when I coast with clutch and don't use the throttle the engine has turned off. Hopefully, I don't need to pay a mechanic to check to make sure the idling speed is 1300 rpm (per 2-7 of service manual) with a tachometer because I'm not sure how to do it. :retard:

[alantf]

Firstly, the tickover speed is controlled by the big white knob under the carb.

Secondly, with the engine thoroughly warmed up, & the choke off, the engine in neutral, screw the big white knob in until the engine is running smoothly (it will sound approximately 1½ times as fast as your car sounds at tickover) What you don't want is to hear each "thump" of the engine. The 1300 RPM is really just a starting point to get the tickover as you want it. I don't think any of us here have got it set exactly to the book, & it's certanly not something you need to pay a mechanic to do for you. One of the reasons being that you'll probably have to give it a tweak now and again to get it set as YOU want it. Again, it's just one of the things you'll learn with experience. :2tup:

Edit :- I used the word "tickover". I think the American word is "idle speed" :)

[Water Warrior 2]

UNTIL THEN... Please tolerate my newbie questions until I have been afforded the opportunity to take/read those trainings.

So here is my newest newbie question I formulated today:

A) How can I prevent the engine from turning off when I stop for a stop sign or red light?

Today I did the following to stop: Pull in clutch, shift from second gear to first, release clutch, let go of throttle, brake, stop. The engine turned off after I stopped and my speedometer went to zero.

I was able to keep the engine on during a stop when I did the following: Pull in clutch, shift from second gear to first, release clutch, let go of throttle, brake, stop, pull clutch, engage throttle gently while brake is still on (still stopped), then I released clutch to drive off again. Is this the right way to do it? Am I supposed to be pulling on the clutch, brake, and engaging the throttle gently during a full stop to stop the engine from shutting down? If so, this doesn't seem very efficient...

HELP!!!
You should be pulling in the clutch just a few feet before coming to a stop. That dis-engages the engine from the back wheel. The engine should remain idling on it's own without opening the throttle. It may need the idle adjusted if it stops on it's own.

[jonathan180iq]

A) How can I prevent the engine from turning off when I stop for a stop sign or red light?

Today I did the following to stop: Pull in clutch, shift from second gear to first, release clutch, let go of throttle, brake, stop. The engine turned off after I stopped and my speedometer went to zero.



....You can't sit at a red light without having the clutch pulled or the bike in neutral.
Same concept as a manual transmission car. The engine will die, as you are describing, if you don't disengage it from the drive system.
You are effectively stalling out everytime you stop because of bad form.

As far as the little bit where you feel you have to give the bike gas to keep it from stalling out, even when you have the clutch pulled in, you're either over reacting because you're paranoid of your previous stalls or you need to adjust your idle speed. There is a large white knob sticking off the side of the carb just for this purpose. Don't go crazy with it, though. a bump in one direction or the other should be fine. And don't adjust it until the bike is warmed up. Also, make sure you aren't leaving the choke on while you ride...

[Gz Rider]

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[mrlmd1]

Good explanation of how engine and wheels are connected through the transmission, but he is going to get overwhelmed with information he cannot use at this stage of development - like idle adjustments, idle speed, clutch adjustment, etc.
I'll say it again - Get a book and take a course ASAP and stay off the streets and roads until you do - you are going to hurt yourself and the bike. There are just too many things you do not know, to be attempting to ride around in public - like proper braking, countersteering, lean, and a host of other things aside from how to shift gears and how the clutch works. You attempting to teach yourself from scratch is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Would you go to a self-taught heart surgeon or brain surgeon for some life-saving procedure?
I personally don't think it's a good idea to potentiate this kind of advice on here and encourage this type of absolute newbie behavior. You cannot teach someone to ride safely by giving answers to questions like these. Just my opinion.

[Gz Rider]

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[7653]

Good explanation of how engine and wheels are connected through the transmission, but he is going to get overwhelmed with information he cannot use at this stage of development - like idle adjustments, idle speed, clutch adjustment, etc.
I'll say it again - Get a book and take a course ASAP and stay off the streets and roads until you do - you are going to hurt yourself and the bike. There are just too many things you do not know, to be attempting to ride around in public - like proper braking, countersteering, lean, and a host of other things aside from how to shift gears and how the clutch works. You attempting to teach yourself from scratch is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Would you go to a self-taught heart surgeon or brain surgeon for some life-saving procedure?
I personally don't think it's a good idea to potentiate this kind of advice on here and encourage this type of absolute newbie behavior. You cannot teach someone to ride safely by giving answers to questions like these. Just my opinion.

As I said:

Thanks to the input from this forum I WILL:
1. Sign up for the MSF Course (I looked at the local MSF website today but none of their classes fit my schedule yet)
2. Read Proficient Motorcycling (I looked it up at my local library and they are all loaned out, but I will get it when there is one free)
3. Fully read the manual

UNTIL THEN... Please tolerate my newbie questions until I have been afforded the opportunity to take/read those trainings.

[mrlmd1]

According to the laws in California ---

How to get a California Motorcycle License

Ready to take your motorcycle on the open road? This article will take you through the steps to get your California motorcycle license with an extra emphasis on safe driving.
California DMV Motorcycle Driver's License Rules

Under California DMV guidelines, anyone who drives a motorcycle must have a Class M motorcycle license or motorcycle instruction permit.

Applicants must be 16 years of age (have had your permit for six months), complete application form DL 44, give a thumbprint, have your picture taken, pay the application fee, pass the motorcycle knowledge test, and a vision screening. The final step is to pass the motorcycle skills test where you will demonstrate your competency in motorcycle operation.

If you are under 21, you must complete a motorcycle rider-training course given by the California Highway Patrol (CHP) and provide a certificate of Completion of Motorcycle Training (DL 389) to the DMV to be issued your license. You will not be required to take the motorcycle-driving test at the DMV if you currently have a California Drivers License.

If you are over 21, you may either choose to complete the course by CHP and provide the certificate or schedule an appointment at the DMV to take the driving test. (You may also call 1-800-777-0133 between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Monday-Friday, to make a driving test appointment.) You have three chances to pass the test.
Prepare for the Written Exam

The California DMV requires that all applicants must pass a written motorcycle knowledge test on traffic signs, motor vehicle laws and safe driving techniques.

If you fail the exam, California requires that you wait 7 days before you can take the test again and, if you do not pass within three tries, you are charged a re-examination fee.

All motorcyclists are encouraged to study for this written test so you don't take a chance on standing in line at the DMV Office only to go home empty-handed. Online practice tests are available that provide real sample questions from the California DMV Motorcycle Exam.

Also ----

Motorcycles, Motor-Driven Cycles, Motorized Bicycles/Mopeds (Section 406(a) VC ) - A helmet meeting Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 218, self-certified by the manufacturer and displaying a 'DOT' emblem must be worn by all riders of motocycles, motor-driven cycles, and motorized bicycles/mopends.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I would advise you to practice all you want in your backyard, but without very basic knowledge and a motorcycle endorsement on your driver's license (and protective gear), stay off the public roads. Not only may you get seriously injured, but if you get stopped without the proper license, especially if you get into an accident, you will also be in serious trouble. I'm sure you don't want your driver's license suspended too plus whatever fines and penalties you may get. Is the bike licensed, have a plate on it? I am trying to look out for your own good.

[Gz Rider]

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[7653]

To answer your concerns:

Yes, I have a learner's permit.

Yes, my bike is insured.

Yes, my bike is registered.

Yes, I have been driving in controlled environments such as parking lots and roads known to have very little traffic.

[Water Warrior 2]

7653, you need an instructor in the worst way. It is obvious that you do not have the proper grasp of the operating principles of the bike. No, I am not picking on you or dissing you. Just trying to keep you alive and healthy. An on site professional instructor is the best for you. You need the knowledge and observations of an instructor to teach you what to do and when to do it. It is possible to be self taught but an instructor will make life a lot easier and safer. From your info so far you are not only an accident waiting to happen but an accident that will happen soon. Take a riding course and things will be explained up close and personal by a qualified person.

[Rookie Rider]

7653, i think all or most of us took the MSF course. Im glad i did and you will too, some of your worries will go away and youll be more comfortable. My MSF course took 2 days.

[5th_bike]

Yeah I took the MSF class too and I'm very happy I did it because the instructors are really experienced riders and teachers.

I knew how to drive a motorcycle already, had done it on a learner's permit when I was younger, and had several mopeds before that - but the class is just an excellent way of getting that "M" on your license.

[Gz Rider]

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[mrlmd1]

You would not effectively learn how to drive a car from asking questions on a forum like this or from reading a book, you would not learn how to fly a plane from that as well. And you will not learn how to ride a motorcycle from information obtained on here either. You may be able to get from here to there on the bike by trying to read and figure it out, maybe do so eventually, but I think almost all of us would agree that's not the best or safest way to do it. It's much better to learn it right first than to unlearn bad habits later. And not get hurt in the process.
I'm not trying to discourage giving out information or advice, but at the same time it's not the function of a forum like this to teach someone how to ride starting totally from scratch when very basic knowledge is missing that's better off gotten elsewhere, like in a course. We talk more on here about engines or mechanical problems or advice on improving skills and increasing safety, not so much teaching someone how to walk. As GZ stated above, he has gotten confusing or conflicting advice already and that's not very helpful to anyone.
There is no boycott of information, the basic concern is for his safety and I personally don't believe he's in a very safe place right now or will get there from here.
We can help him a lot more and improve his skills after he has taken the course and gets his license and starts to ride with some basic understanding of what's going on. He doesn't have that now and I don't believe we are doing him much of a service in trying to tell him where is first, second, fifth, how the clutch works, why he stalls the bike, etc. There are no shortcuts to being able to ride a bike safely. You have to read as much as you can and the benefits of a live instructor at your side is immeasurable.

And for 7653 - are you wearing any protective gear at all? You, more than anyone, seriously needs it the most.

[7653]

7654, I will be glad to answer any further questions you may have without telling you for the:

3rd time to read the owners manual
4th that you have a lot to learn
5th time to read a book on motorcycling
9th time to take a safety course

To the rest I would say the problem here is that this person did not understand the workings of a manual transmission in a motorcycle. If he goes into the course understanding at least that much he will likely get more out of the course. If he doesn't, the instructor will have to spend alot of time explaining what we all could have.

He identified himself as a newbie and asked newbie questions. JWR (sorry to pick on you) confused him with his "Yes" answer given to two questions. Alantf (sorry to pick on you too) confused him by suggesting that neutral was a stop between first and second. These things caused him to ask more questions that made him seem even less knowledgeable than he was.

Then we all jump on him regarding book, courses and the like. I have seen several people (including myself) advised to take courses and the person resists. At this point there is an avalanche of posts telling the person the importance of the course. Sometimes they still resist, but we don't shut them out. My question is this: At what point did 7654 resist this advice? He didn't.

I don't think a boycott of information is what this board is here for and I don't think it helps anything to do that. I think it's here to help people get into motorcycling and improve their knowledge.

Gz Rider: I'm glad you picked up on what I'm feeling right now. I don't get why certain things are repeated over and over even though I said I will do it or have been.

I said:

Thanks to the input from this forum I WILL:
1. Sign up for the MSF Course (I looked at the local MSF website today but none of their classes fit my schedule yet)
2. Read Proficient Motorcycling (I looked it up at my local library and they are all loaned out, but I will get it when there is one free)
3. Fully read the manual

UNTIL THEN... Please tolerate my newbie questions until I have been afforded the opportunity to take/read those trainings.

I wrote: I will take the MSF, I will read Proficient Motorcycling, I have been and will finish reading the manual, I have been driving in a safe controlled environments (parking lot & quiet streets).

But people still keep on repeating the same thing over and over -- even though somebody else has already written it or I have said that I will or have been doing it already.

I observe that it is almost like previous posts on this thread aren't read and insubstantive posts are being written just to up individual post counts.

Anyhow, if the reason why my bike turns off at stops/idle is because of a current characteristic of my bike (such as needing to turn the idle rpm), I'm not really going to pick up on that unless I ask other people. It's the combination of reading/asking questions (like on this message board) and hands-on stuff that teaches. I have been learning a lot thanks to looking up answers to my questions online and experimenting myself.

[Rookie Rider]

Maybe after you take the MSF course, youll GET why were repeating ourselves. After we read what someone has written to you it gives us a reminder of the subject and we chime in again. Thats all. Maybe its me but i dont think you were very nice in your last post 7653, kind of selfish. Me being a beginner learned alot on here by reading different ways people wrote the same thing over and over and over. I wont be writing on THIS thread anymore. Good luck to you !!

[5th_bike]

I don't mind. 7653 is an angel compared to some others that flew by here.

We sure had our share of seagull members.

(Yay, my post count up +1) :rawk:

[JWR]

I observe that it is almost like previous posts on this thread aren't read and insubstantive posts are being written just to up individual post counts.

Anyhow, if the reason why my bike turns off at stops/idle is because of a current characteristic of my bike (such as needing to turn the idle rpm), I'm not really going to pick up on that unless I ask other people. It's the combination of reading/asking questions (like on this message board) and hands-on stuff that teaches.


:??:

[Water Warrior 2]

Just occured to me. We all missed one important point. Our newbie is trying to ride the GZ like a scooter. The clutch must be pulled in when coming to a stop. A scooter has a different drive system and doesn't have an actual manual clutch. Use the clutch when stopping and things might be a lot more clear to you. The clutch is let out to go, shifting up and down and pulled in when stopping. That and the too low idle are 2 things to rectify. It will get a lot easier and smoother.

[Gz Rider]

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[Gz Rider]

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[jonathan180iq]

[quote="Water Warrior":172w0c7e]Just occured to me. We all missed one important point. Our newbie is trying to ride the GZ like a scooter.

I didn't miss it. This is from my first post on this thread.

[/quote:172w0c7e]

Agreed. See my post at the top of this page (page 2)

[Water Warrior 2]

Oops, my bad. Must have been a senior moment happening. But I must redeem myself a little lol. No one told the OP to stop trying to ride a bike like a scooter. Until the OP realizes the 2 have different drive systems he will continue to have problems. He has to unlearn the scooter operation.

[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

My 1st experience with a manual shift was at age 12. Farm truck, early 50's half ton Ford on a rutted dirt road. No power steering, no power brakes or a seat belt to hold me in place. Modern vehicles are pretty much fool proof and easy to drive. That said, I would never go back in time to drive an old pickup again. Having owned auto and manuals over the years I prefer autos in cages and think a manual bike is just the icing on the cake. Part of the motorcycle experience and we get to play footsie with the gears. Now if my Ranger was just an auto I'd be happy.

[mrlmd1]

You can get an automatic bike too if you want - like the Honda DN-01.
Part of the shifting thing is somehow being macho, like would you buy a 6 speed Porsche 911 or an automatic? (and then be considered a wuss?). Or an automatic Miata? (A bigger wuss.)
How would those Harley or other big bike owners look at you with an automatic motorcycle when you pull up and park anywhere near them? And would you park near them? Just wondering. :roll: :neener: :poke2: :lol:

[Water Warrior 2]

You can get an automatic bike too if you want - like the Honda DN-01.
Part of the shifting thing is somehow being macho, like would you buy a 6 speed Porsche 911 or an automatic? (and then be considered a wuss?). Or an automatic Miata? (A bigger wuss.)
How would those Harley or other big bike owners look at you with an automatic motorcycle when you pull up and park anywhere near them? And would you park near them? Just wondering. :roll: :neener: :poke2: :lol:
Actually I am a bit of a wuss. I would opt for an auto Porsche. One of Yamaha's (???) big touring bikes has an electric shift of some sort and seems to appeal to some riders. Ridley bikes are U.S. made and autos for the non shifting set. Big scooters are autos and proving to be popular and reliable with many folks buying them as touring machines. They also have great handling characteristics which is a bonus in any bike.
Where would I park ?? Beside my friend's H-D of course. Just like where I park my dirty blue Vstrom with no chrome. :lol:

[Gz Rider]

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[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

Had my share of shift em type cages. Went back to a shifter after many autos and don't like it anymore. With an auto Porsche I could do the twisties and still hold my coffee in one hand. My next whatever(cheaper than a Porsche) cage will be an auto for sure.

[mole2]

To answer your concerns:

Yes, I have a learner's permit.

Yes, my bike is insured.

Yes, my bike is registered.

Yes, I have been driving in controlled environments such as parking lots and roads known to have very little traffic.

Do yourself a BIG favor that may save your life. TAKE THE MOTORCYCLE SAFETY FOUNDATION BASIC RIDER COURSE. Your questions will be answered there and you will learn the proper way to operate a motorcycle. You keep doing what you're doing (self taught) and you're going to hurt yourself or kill yourself or hurt/kill someone else.


:)

[Gz Rider]

...

[mrlmd1]

Or maybe his.

[Gz Rider]

...

[mole2]

Or maybe his.

Are you suggesting he did someing wrong on this board or on the street :skull: ?

Yes. You CAN'T learn how to drive on a forum whether it be a motorcycle, car, plane, etc. What he is asking is the very basics of operating a motorcycle and will be covered in the class which is why most everyone is saying to take the course. If he realized it then he would take the course and end this very basic question(s) at that before he hurts/kills himself or someone else.


:)

[Gz Rider]

...

[mole2]

Either way, he's gone.

All he wanted to know was how the transmission worked.

Not how the transmission worked but how to use it. Big difference. That, my friend, is where an instructor comes in.


:)

[Gz Rider]

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[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

What makes 7653 different ? Probably nothing if you accept the fact that he didn't seem (to me) to be willing to listen as well as most newbies. He did ride a scooter prior and confessed to little or no mechanical knowledge. From there everything went downhill with a barage of riding, shifting, clutching, riding course suggestions and do/don't comments. Yes we may have treated him a little harshly but most us just want to keep newbies upright and alive. Let's hope he is safe and undamaged after his venture here. If/when he comes back he will still be welcome.

[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

[quote="Water Warrior":285gp7t6]What makes 7653 different ? Probably nothing if you accept the fact that he didn't seem (to me) to be willing to listen as well as most newbies.

What did he not listen to? Please give a specific quote.[/quote:285gp7t6]
Can't give you a specific quote. That was the impression I got. That is why I specified "to me" in my comment.

[Gz Rider]

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[JWR]

Easy Rider, dat you??

[Water Warrior 2]

GZ rider. Not me. I wouldn't hold it against some one for riding a scooter. 2 wheels are 2 wheels. A scooter rider wanting to move up to a smaller bike is just a natural thing in most cases IMHO. Others get larger scooters with the convenience of no clutch to operate. There are almost as many scooters here as motorcycles. Most are decent just like bike riders. They are great commuters in a smaller community and ridden all year long in many cases.

[mrlmd1]

I was in no way trying to chase him off here. The impression I got was that he had a really bad lack of extremely basic knowledge by the type of questions he asked, and his persistence in trying to get them answered, and his seemingly poor grasp of what he was being told, that he would be much better off taking a course and reading those good books instead of getting told something on here he didn't understand and going on his bike out on the road to figure it out.
I was trying to save his ass, that of someone else he might hit, and his bike, and I said that a few times. I never did not offer to help him, I knew he would get better help elsewhere (with an MSF instructor), and I never felt that way about anyone else on here who asked a simple basic question. 7653 was very different and I hope he takes a course and then comes back. I don't think any of us who gave him that advice, as many times as he got it, has to defend themselves for telling him that. You want to teach him to ride by answering his questions on here, then you are the same fool he is to think he can learn to ride from asking you how do I shift, can I go from 1st to 5th or vice versa, etc. I can't do that from here. Now, if I saw him in person and spent one on one time with him, I'm sure I could do that. The MSF people can do it better.

[mole2]

I was in no way trying to chase him off here. The impression I got was that he had a really bad lack of extremely basic knowledge by the type of questions he asked, and his persistence in trying to get them answered, and his seemingly poor grasp of what he was being told, that he would be much better off taking a course and reading those good books instead of getting told something on here he didn't understand and going on his bike out on the road to figure it out.
I was trying to save his ass, that of someone else he might hit, and his bike, and I said that a few times. I never did not offer to help him, I knew he would get better help elsewhere (with an MSF instructor), and I never felt that way about anyone else on here who asked a simple basic question. 7653 was very different and I hope he takes a course and then comes back. I don't think any of us who gave him that advice, as many times as he got it, has to defend themselves for telling him that. You want to teach him to ride by answering his questions on here, then you are the same fool he is to think he can learn to ride from asking you how do I shift, can I go from 1st to 5th or vice versa, etc. I can't do that from here. Now, if I saw him in person and spent one on one time with him, I'm sure I could do that. The MSF people can do it better.

+1 :2tup:


:)

[alantf]

I think the main problem was that he is American. :) By that I mean that ALL his driving/riding prior to the gz was "point and shoot" i.e. automatic. Thus he had no comprehension whatsoever regarding gears. In no other country in the world are the majority of cars automatic. In England, if you pass your test in an automatic car that's all you can drive. To drive a car with a manual gearbox you have to take another test in that type of car. This means that virtually everyone learns on a manual car, so they have this knowledge when they start riding. If they start riding first, they have nothing to unlearn. I reckon this holds true in every other country in the world. It just seems that this was one guy in particular who had a great difficulty unlearning "point and shoot" :)

[Gz Rider]

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[Gz Rider]

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[Gz Rider]

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[Gz Rider]

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[alantf]

I'd rather the the car behind me in traffic that says "student driver" be an automatic.

In both England & Spain the driving school cars are dual control i.e. the instructor has a clutch & brake in his footwell too. If the learner makes a mistake, the instructor can declutch & brake, to stop the car safely.

[mrlmd1]

That's to save the instructor's ass (and the car). Some of those cars have dual steering as well.

[Gz Rider]

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[JWR]

Easy Rider, dat you??

Is that what Easy used to do? Defend people and encourage inclusion?


No, he was always right and had to have the last word.

If the shoe fits....

[Gz Rider]

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[JWR]

Ah, so it was mole2's fault and you had to straighten him out.
Got it.

I just call things as I see them.
IMHO.
YMMV.

[Gz Rider]

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[jonathan180iq]

I'm going to win this last-word battle if it's the last thing I do.... word.

[blaine]

word!!!!! :poke2: :tongue:

[mole2]

Word! :poke2: :lol: :retard:


:)

[jonathan180iq]

Word. :retard:

[blaine]

Word. :retard:
Last word!!!! :neener: :)

[mrlmd1]

I hope so!!

[jonathan180iq]

http://couponkatarina.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/energizer-bunny.jpg

Keep going.

[cayuse]

I WANT THE LAST WORD!!!!
:biggrin:

[alantf]

In the US, we are not required to go through professional driving instruction at all.

In Spain, all learning is done in a driving school car. In England, however, although professional teaching is not required by law, it is usually carried out. A learner driver can practice in a car as long as he is accompanied by someone over the age of 21, & who has held a licence for that class of vehicle for at least 3 years. The vehicle must carry red plates with a white L (learner) at the front & rear. I remember in the early sixties, when my father taught me the basics, & I then went to a driving school. The instructor said "O.k., you can drive a car. Now I'm going to teach you how to pass the test" He meant that he was going to teach me what the examiners wanted to see. Nowadays, also, learner drivers must sit, & pass, a written test on traffic law, road signs etc before being allowed on the road. Also, it's a stiff test of at least half an hour, & like I've said before, if you take the test in an automatic, that's all you're allowed to drive. If you then wanted to drive a manual shift, you'd have to take another test in a manual.

[jonathan180iq]

While reading this, I was thinking of how nice it would be if all of our learning drivers and young kids had big red letters on their car indicating that they are going through the learning process.

The problem though, is that some people still don't get it, even after 15 years of experience, and it would be even more confusing ;)
We just have to assume that no one over her knows how to drive.
That philosophy has kept me safe.

[Gz Rider]

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[Water Warrior 2]

While reading this, I was thinking of how nice it would be if all of our learning drivers and young kids had big red letters on their car indicating that they are going through the learning process.

The problem though, is that some people still don't get it, even after 15 years of experience, and it would be even more confusing ;)
We just have to assume that no one over her knows how to drive.
That philosophy has kept me safe.
Here in B.C. there is a half decent system. Student drivers must have a large easy to see "L" in the back of the car. Newly minted drivers have a large "N" on the back for a year or so. A new driver who is caught without the "N" is in deep do-do and pays a price for their discretions.

[alantf]

Newly minted drivers have a large "N" on the back for a year or so.

In Spain it's a white L on a green plate for a year. In Ireland, I believe, it's a P. In England they don't have to do this.

[7653]

Back in October 11 during my third post on this thread I wrote:

Thank you for the responses. Especially from Gz Rider, your answers really cleared things up.

Thanks to the input from this forum I WILL:
1. Sign up for the MSF Course (I looked at the local MSF website today but none of their classes fit my schedule yet)
2. Read Proficient Motorcycling (I looked it up at my local library and they are all loaned out, but I will get it when there is one free)
3. Fully read the manual

UNTIL THEN... Please tolerate my newbie questions until I have been afforded the opportunity to take/read those trainings.

So here is my newest newbie question I formulated today:

.....

HELP!!!

Since then I have:
1. Completed the MSF Course after I found a class that fit my schedule
2. Finished reading proficient motorcycling in November after I was able to borrow the book from the library
3. Read the manual from October to December
4. Received my motorcycle license in December
5. Been using quality protective gear Arai Corsair, Aerostich jacket and pants, etc.

Here's a review/timeline report back of my progress:

--Feb. 17 2011: Bought the bike. But it would not turn over for some reason. Decided not to fix/ride/buy insurance until at earliest after the summer because I had some other commitments

--Sept. 2011: Started using my friend's scooter occasionally to get used to a two-wheeled vehicle

--Sept. 27, 2011: Bought insurance for my bike

--Oct. 8, 2011: Got the bike towed to a dealer and fixed. It was the carb that needed cleaning. I asked my friend who had manual transmission experience (but no motorcycle experience) to ride it to the garage for me.

--Oct. 9, 2011: Rode bike for the first time at a parking lot after my friend drove it there for me. I only ride for less than one-hundred feet and barely move for the half hour or so as I try to figure out what I am doing. I probably had a total riding time of the bike in operation for less than 1 minute until I had to leave for other commitments. I have difficulty learning about and using the clutch for the first time and the learning curve is compounded by the fact that the engine also keeps stalling when I don't have any throttle on it.

--Oct. 10, 2011: I post this thread after my first attempt at riding a motorcycle

--Oct. 12, 2011: I don't bother reading this thread anymore after people keep repeating the same things over and over again without actually offering substantive answers to my questions even though I already wrote that I was receptive to their advice and would: 1. Take the MSF Course, 2. Read Proficient Motorcycling, 3. Read manual.

--Oct. 10-14, 2011: I figured out on my own that I need to keep the throttle on at all times to keep my bike running and not stall. Even though I don't have any friends that ride motorcycles, by the 14th I know how to ride the bike and use the clutch and ride the bike around my neighborhood. I learned by reading online sources to get an academic understanding of how the bike works and then applying the knowledge with hands-on experimentation.

--Late Oct. 2011: I start driving to school with the bike. The bike eventually does not need throttle at all times to not stall. I suspect circulation was needed to unclog the carb, even though the dealer cleaned it.

--Nov. 2011: Finished reading Proficient Motorcycling

--Dec. 2011: I take the MSF Course and also get my license. The MSF course had some excellent hands-on exercises for people who have never been on a bike and helped people who were clueless about clutch to slowly release. The way they taught manual transmission sort of assumed everybody knew about gears already. The academic portion didn't teach much. It basically told us: don't do anything stupid that would get you hurt. All in all I felt the MSF course was redundant, the motorcycle operation aspect (clutch, gears, brakes) I learned after less than a week of screwing around and experimenting on my bike. The safety/academic/classroom portion was a repeat of what I read in Proficient Motorcycling and what any knowledgeable driver for any motor vehicle should already know. The most useful portions were the practical exercises that put me into a few riding situations I hadn't tried before.

--Dec. 2011: Ride for the first time to work

So voila! I'm very excited about everything so far and look forward to riding every time I get the chance!

[Water Warrior 2]

7653, welcome back and congrats to you for doing the course, homework and being a legal rider. Ride safe and giggle.

[Way]

Excellent 7653 :2tup:

I know in Vermont, in order to get my license a year early, I had to take a driving class in high school and had a learner's permit for that time. The school car had magnetic stickers on the side and rear saying "Student Driver" but it wasn't required on private cars I was practicing in. Some states also restrict new drivers to daytime only, no passengers also I think. I also had to have an adult over 18 with me during that period. I learned automatic first, manual later.

For commercial driving though, you only get the endorsement for which you trained, ie if you learned to drive a truck with automatic that's all you are legally allowed to drive, no manual. At the time I got my commercial license, all trucks had manual, automatic was still in the developmental stages.

In Europe, stick is the manly way to drive. In the States we compensated with big cars/big horsepower. And unfortunately due to the continued dumbing down of our people, more and more it's expected that automatic transmissions will take over the job of shifting at the most fuel efficient rpms. That way people can text without being distracted too much. :hide:

[blaine]

Welcome back.Great to see that you are a licensed rider.Ride safe & have fun. :) :cool:

[alantf]

--Oct. 10-14, 2011: I figured out on my own that I need to keep the throttle on at all times to keep my bike running and not stall.

--Late Oct. 2011: I start driving to school with the bike. The bike eventually does not need throttle at all times to not stall. I suspect circulation was needed to unclog the carb, even though the dealer cleaned it.

Have you tried setting the idle speed to 1400-1500 rev/min, as recommended by Suzuki, by turning the big white knob under the carb, when the choke is off & the engine is hot? Remember - this sounds like a very high idle, when compared to a car. :)