When to use the clutch...
 

The single most mystifying thing about learning to ride a bike has been the clutch. I have driven a scooter for a while, and so I was leaps and bounds ahead of other riders in the MSF class in most tested areas while rolling, but when it came to shifting I was a slow learner having only driven a stick shift once or twice in my life.

I didn't get all of the info I needed in the class and so I will ask here, something I am sure I will be doing a lot the first couple weeks.

When is the proper time to use the clutch? I know gear changes use the clutch, and when coming to a stop. What I am confused about it if you should use the clutch when rolling off the throttle in a turn. I noticed on the training bike that rolling completely off the throttle and coasting and then rolling back on the throttle caused a little jerky jump at first. Is this normal/supposed to happen or am I supposed to be using the clutch? I just need to know what to do before I get to higher speeds. I want to make sure there isn't something I will do to make it jump out of my control when rolling on the throttle while driving.

Thanks for your time.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

While I certainly know how to use the clutch, unfortunately I'm finding it impossible to put into words. However, one thing I've noticed in the handbook is that you should pull in the clutch at speeds below 15 km/hr (9 to 10 mph) While I don't find this necessary (and I'm sure the majority of other riders don't find it necessary also) it MAY help you at this early stage. :2tup:

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

you in such a dangerous point in your riding. im teaching my girl how to ride and she doensnt have the skill yet to stop at lights and signs so she will blindly taketurns etc. she almost got ran over the other day, like no shit almost killed. so i told her she would not ride again till she took her msf course. i feel like you in the same place she is on clutch control. dude this shit cannot b taught over a forum post, do yourself a favor and help you live alittle longer, go back to school or get someone good on bikes to show you the ropes.imo knowing th clutch is the most important thing on a bike

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

I am a newbie as well. I took the MSF course and the problem is that they teach you how to shift, but not when to shift. Specifically, shifting when turning, at lights, entering a parking lot. It is a controlled environment at the class designed to prepare you to pass the proficiency test. The instructors will tell you this just gets you your endorsement, but you are by no means skilled. I say this to say that the most important advice I received from my instructors, my BF who is experienced, and other riders is to learn my bike by going to the parking lot. I go there even though I am on the street riding on long rides. It helps to reinforce the things/mistakes I learn on the street and I am safe while learning. I learned to downshift better and work my clutch better in the parking lot where I spent over an hour practicing. I also ride with an experienced rider who critiques me when I ride. I can also ask him questions as I ride. I still will not go out by myself because I recognize my limitations as a newbie. BTW I drove a stick shift for years so shifting is not new to me. In summary, go to a parking lot and practice. Get to know your bike. This is a process of skill building so be patient with yourself and be safe. :cool:

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Thanks for the advice. Geezer you misunderstand me. I am by no means out of control, and by the endof the course I was shifting just fine. I understand the friction zone and all that, I mainly just want to know two things. Is the little jerkiness when rolling back on the throttle all the way and then back on normal, and am I supposed to engage the clutch when completely letting go of the throttle and then rolling back on.

For instance, I'm rolling and I am now in second gear. I let off the throttle to go into a curve or turn. After slowing I roll onto the throttle (after not using much or any at all, coasting a bit) and go through the turn. Sometimes this caused the range bikes to be just a bit jerky when rolling back on the throttle, didn't cause any control issues, but I just wanted to know if this was normal and if I should have been using the clutch to avoid damaging anything.

That's what I need to know.

For me, the only thing I am still learning with the clutch is not killing it at least once while riding from a stop light by letting out the clutch to quickly :tongue:

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Mine has always been jerky when shutting off the throttle, until the engine gets really hot, then the jerkiness disappears. Is this what you mean, & does it go away when the engine gets hot? :)

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

I haven't had a chance to test out a bike fully on my own yet, still waiting another week to get my gz, my experience is limited to the range and test drives of other bikes. I am mainly referring to the little jolt/jerkiness I have noticed at lower gears when rolling off the throttle and coasting, and then rolling back on the throttle. I don't use the clutch when I do this, and the jolt is minor and not jarring, but I am just curious if I am supposed to be using the clutch there.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

sorry when people ask when to use a clutch i kinda worry. :crackup my girl got on and read the post and asked "is he reall asking us how to use a clutch?" yeah i misunderstood you sorry :lol: yes the buckin and jerkin is all normal at slow speed if you off the throttle and clutch ma dude

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Alan, sounds like your experience is due to a reduction in compression when your engine is hot. I know when I'm in a low gear and transitioning from decel to accel on the throttle I will frequently put a little pressure on the clutch just to soften the 'jolt'.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

This is the only bike I've ever had where this happens (been riding for over 45 years) Never heard about compression lowering with a hot engine, How does that happen? :??:

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

I'm just guessin' Alan. I've seen 2-strokes clap out after being run way too hot. Maybe a problem with rings, cylinder expansion, or head gasket leakage.

I don't share your experience on the GZ wrt to jerkiness when the engine is hot or cold. Mine is somewhat 'jerky' in the lower gears when transitioning from throttle closing to opening and vice versa. In higher gears, especially at lower speeds it is much smoother. I think it's due to the various inertias vs. engine compression.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

are you all talking about the slack in the drive chain? lol

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

It seems (to me) that when the engine is thoroughly hot, the idle revs rise, so when I shut off the throttle it closes to a higher revs (if you can understand what I'm trying to get at) When the engine is cool the idle revs are lower than recommended.

I know what you mean about 2 strokes! When I first came over here, all I could afford was an old Peugeot 150cc scooter with a million miles on the clock. One day, as I was going down the autopista at around 70 km/hr (the fastest it would go!) it just cut out on me. Just couldn't get it to go again, so I started pushing it along the shoulder. After half an hour of pushing I hit the start button, & it started up like there had never been a problem. If I'd just sat on the shoulder for half an hour I'd have saved myself from a week of aches and pains. :cry:

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

The clutch is oil bathed, so you do not need to worry about using it too much, you will not burn the clutch. When rolling at a slow speed you should maintain a slight amount of throttle and use your clutch to adjust the speed. With practice you should be able to roll at slow speed very smoothly by using your clutch. As far as going into a turn in 2nd it sounds like you should have downshifted into 1st, then you should have been able to accelerate smoothly through the turn. You should not upshift or downshift while in the turn. With practice you will learn the gear to use when entering a turn.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

You may be in too high a gear for the speed you are going and putting too high a load on the engine and it is bogging down. With a little more riding experience you will know what gear to be in at what speed. 2nd gear at 5 mph or so may not be appropriate, you may have needed to be in first. You do not have to ride the clutch, really not a good idea, and will get to know your bike better with more riding time.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

I was the same when i started - the jerkiness when you open the throttle can be worrying - i formed a habbit which i am still undecided on whether it is bad or not of slightly pulling in the clutch and matching the revs to the speed to remove the jerkiness but as far as proper training goes i think you just get used to the jerkiness, the more you do it and the more you anticipate it the less jumpy it seems - i only do it now if i'm suddenly opening the throttle a lot and the jump would be larger than normal - really slowly opening the throttle and giving the engine time to catch up can remove the jerkiness too but this isn't always an option

Hope this helps

Vii

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Nightsbane, you got a lot of really good advice here, but I think Rionna gave you the best of all, go find a large empty parking lot and practice, practice and then practice some more. Just about anybody can fly down the straightaway, it's the slow speed turns and the starts and stops that most riders need to work on. You'll find your groove through lots of repetitions and one day you will realize that you probably can't remember the last time you had that "jerky" feeling.

I can't speak for anybody else, just me, but even though I rode dirt bikes every day as a kid, it took me a good while to feel solidly in control of a street bike when I started riding again after 20+ years of not riding. I think the GZ is one of the very best choices for someone to learn to ride on. It handle well, doesn't really have enough power to get away from you easily, and it's light enough to pick up if you fall over.

I saw a young lady on a big Harley touring bike take a spill at a stop sign the other day because she hit a little gravel and once it started to go, she didn't have the strength to keep it up. I think she probably hurt her hip trying to keep it from falling over. She was almost completely stopped when it dropped her and it took two big men to get that puppy back upright.

You've got the right bike, just get out there and spend a lot of time practicing slow speed maneuvers and stops and starts. :)

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

I'm just coming into this discussion now. What bothers me is the bold phrase above. You don't coast in a turn, you stay in gear. You roll your throttle to maintain speed and once straightened up you roll your throttle to accelerate. Never coast in a turn. You seem to be confusing the "friction zone" used in slow speed maneuvers with turning. Re-read you manual and you will see for turns Slow for entry speed, Look through the entire turn, Press the hand grip slightly on the side you want to turn (counter steering), and roll your throttle to keep from losing speed.

Let me know if this is what you were asking about.


:)

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Not what I was asking at all. I was only asking if you should engage the clutch when you have completely rolled off the throttle before you roll back on.

There is nothing at all wrong with coasting into a turn. You approach the turn, use the clutch and perhaps a little break to slow, start your approach vector and then roll on the throttle evenly through the turn to cause the centripetal force to carry you through the turn. If you thought I meant coasting THROUGH a turn then I think you misunderstood me. The turn has started once you have taken any action required for that turn, and the process of slowing down is the first step even before turning the bike a single degree.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Ok, I did misunderstand you. I wouldn't coast into a turn. You may let your clutch out and momentarily lock your rear wheel while your front wheel is turned causing you to lose friction on your rear tire and go down (low side). Ride safe.


:)

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Im a new rider and i always squeeze the clutch right before i brake cause im still nervous that i will stall and then fall.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Why would you fall from a stall? If your engine dies just brake safely and restart?

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

young pups you hve so much to learn, no you dont coast into turn! sure it works but its bad practice. coasting reduces ground clearance limiting your lean angle. but i do ride sportbikes and alot of my technique comes from that but its all the same bikes are bikes

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Once again, you are missing my explanation. I never said coast into the actual turning motion, I was referencing coasting into the approach to the turn, meaning you can slow before you ever move your bars or lean a millimeter. Then accelerate and move into the turn normally.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

actually you can lean up to one mm before coasting gets unsafe :neener: i kid cool just ride

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

I think I understand what you’re trying to ask. And I'm assuming were talking neighborhood 90 degree turn not bends in the road while you’re going 55. As you’re slowing down for a turn, you are braking and then coasting before you enter the turn, then roll on to the throttle before the lean and feel a bit of a jerky motion then you maintain speed through the turn and then accelerate out of it.

If that is the case then you have slowed enough that you should have down shifted or if you are in first then yes use your clutch to ease the transition and avoid stalling. Just release slowly so you don't have any loss of traction. Look where you want to go and be confident that the bike will do its part.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

When i was practicing to start off by releasing the clutch and giving it throttle, i would miss the friction zone and the bike would stall. Same when i practiced slow turns,or slow circle turns or figure eights, i clutched wrong and the bike stalled and it fell over, thats why im nervous and squeeze the clutch right before i brake every single time.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Honestly, that is a bad habit to form. you shouldn't rely soley on your brakes to stop you/slow you down. You should rely on the compression of the engine when you downshift AS WELL AS the brakes. You stop/slow down MUCH quicker and a lot smoother using the engine compression on the downshift. Get off that bad habit before you get so used to it that it stays with you for good (rookie rider that means you).

Learn how to downshift and brake properly and set yourself up for a turn. If your bike is jerky when you roll on the throttle out of the turn, then you are simply in the wrong gear and did not set yourself up for the turn correctly. You either are in too high a gear or to low a gear if it is jerking. How does that happen?...By pulling in the clutch and not using it effectively to slow down and most importantly ...listening... to the rpms of the bike corresponding to how you are entering that corner and putting your bike in the gear it should be in. It should be a smooth transition of engine brake, foot brake, downshift once or twice depending on curve, rolling in the curve (without holding the clutch), hitting the apex and rolling on the throttle. No clutch pull, no jerks, no problem.

Didn't they teach you this in the MSF? I distinctly remember them telling everyone about downshifting and stopping and how its effectiveness helps the bike slow down faster.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Wanna learn to shift and use the clutch properly ? Pick up a copy of "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough. It is the best way to learn from reading and practicing what you read. Most if not all decent training courses are based on his writing and praised by anyone who reads his decades of experience and lessons. Read and undo any bad habits before they become ingrained in your riding.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Very good advice from Dupo and WW! :2tup:

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Yeah i do downshift before i brake always. But i do use my clutch as im braking. I live in queens NY so there arent any curves here, just lots of "L" turns. Have to come almost to a COMPLETE STOP JUST TO TURN HERE ITS RIDICULOUS. Thank you fellas.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Were do you guys get those smileys from ? the 2thumbs up etc.? lol

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

dude reply to this, see those happy little guys on the left there? lol if your that blind you should def not be riding :neener: :lol: :2tup: :fu: O_o :shocked: :tongue: :) :roll: :skull: :twisted:

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

If you are pulling the clutch as you come to a stop when you are in 1st gear .. ok. If you are pulling the clutch when you brake any other time, then what i said stands. Only time you need to pull the clutch is to shift up/down and when you come to a stop in 1st. That's it.

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

You never ever want to roll off the throttle while turning. You actually want to roll on the throttle. That's why you brake (depending on the angle of the turn) before turning. Slow, look, press and roll. That's what I learned at riders edge :fu:

All good fun though. The real practice is when you get on the road. Think of the first (and really from first to second, because that is the first shift) shift as starting out. You want to ease as you did from the start. From all the other gears shifting UP, you want to just single motion drop and shift. Do it quick. If you shift and roll back on the throttle, it should be seamless. Just one pull forward from dropping the clutch as you completed a shift.

Most bikes friction zone is different. You can't really change where it's at easily, but once you know where it is you can experiment. See what happens when you pull the clutch back, but don't completely let off the throttle (no shifting). The engine will rev. A lot. From there, just close the gap between the time you roll off the throttle, and pull back the clutch. Eventually you will get it. I put 400+ miles on my bike in about 2 weeks (since I got my motorcycle license 2 weeks ago, lol), and I still have the bike jumping a lot at times.

This is just what has worked for me. Maybe someone with more experience will tell me im wrong, or amend. We're in it to win it.

Happy riding.

**EDIT**


When I am rolling up on a red light that is around the corner (doing about 60 mph), I look and time everything so I glide to a perfect stop. However, as soon as I see it's red, I pull the clutch in. and just ride. I hold it until I stop completely. I still downshift at the appropriate road speed. Is this ok to do? Is this a bad habbit?

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Thanks Dupo and Suncross, i'll be practicing that for sure.......... Geezer, i dont see those happy little guys to the left anywhere, lol. Thats it im selling my bike. haha

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

hmm they should be there. is all your seeing is a bunch of red X's?

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Hit "preview" before you hit "submit"

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Yes, bad habit:

Deceleration
Typically with motorcycles and in motor sport, the clutch is often used to facilitate the use of resistance from the engine spinning at high speeds to decelerate the vehicle more quickly, often accompanied with normal braking. This is achieved by placing the vehicle in a gear that would ordinarily be too low for the current speed and momentum of the vehicle and by partly engaging the clutch. When this happens momentum energy from the inertia of the vehicle is taken away to spin the engine as close as possible to its maximum capability. As the vehicle is decelerating the clutch can be further released to transfer more energy to keep the engine spinning as quickly as possible. Once the clutch is entirely released this cycle proceeds downwards through the gears to further assist deceleration. If the clutch is controlled improperly while this is being attempted, damage or extra wear to the engine and gears is possible, as well as the risk of wheels locking up and a subsequent loss of proper vehicle control.

-------------------

You also run the risk of being in the wrong gear or too low of a gear and locking your rear wheel.

This guy explains it pretty good. And yes, he DOES say he stops by pulling the clutch, stopping then shifting down the gears. He does it when i do it, when a light changes red quickly, traffic stops abruptly, someone turns in front of you all of a sudden ... etc... and theres no time to engine brake.

[youtube:2j77uvwp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4izLOs6nE[/youtube:2j77uvwp]

Re: When to use the clutch...
 

Don't use the quick reply box ... click on "post reply" button on the lower left under the last post. it will take you to the 'post a reply' page and there you can do magically wonderful things :tongue: