Cramps between the shoulder blades below the neck...

[alanmcorcoran]

There's a lot of wind on the freeway, mostly self generated, some natural. It comes around the shield at a steady clip - not full on in your face, but all around the helmet, and there is a constant mini-buffeting of the head that goes on. I find myself clenching my jaw sometimes. I think maybe the windshield is too far away. I did try tucking up under it, and it's a lot less turbulent there, but it's kind of a bad position (sort of half cruiser, half sport bike), so I didn't do it for very long.

I tend to vary my position, mostly from straight up back to slouch. Sometimes I hunch forward and put more weight on my arms, esp for gnarly twisties where I need to be aggressive on the countersteeering and flipping the lean. Sometimes I sit way back on the seat, Sometimes I grip the tank with my knees, other times I transfer weight to my feet (have the floor boards.) I don't think I'm stiff arming it, but I'll pay more attention next time I'm out. I do think my head is a little forward, I am probably leaning forward more than sitting back.

[Moedad]

I met Mike Shermer in Solvang once when I was there for the Solvang Century. I used to get the same pain in the neck/upper shoulder blades you're talking about on long rides too. I would stretch my muscles by tucking my chin down to my chest (when I had a clear road ahead). I haven't experienced any neck pain yet on either motorcycle. Then again, I haven't done anything over two hundred miles yet either. Gotta fix that.

Went for a Santiago Canyon run at dusk tonight on the Nighthawk. That was nice.

Originally Posted by alanmcorcoran

Nope. Did some Internet searching because I remembered a guy that attached a bungee cord from his helmet to his bike shorts to hold... up... his... head - to finish a Ride Across America. Turns out, there is a name for this.

http://www.ultracycling.com/training/neck_pain.html

A Pain in the Neck
Shermer's Neck
Many cases of Shermer's Neck were observed at the end of Paris-Brest-Paris '03; this can affect any long-distance cyclist.

By Walter Libby, LMT and Sue Morris, LMT
Sue Morris of Corvallis, OR, crewed for Team VeloWear's mixed two person RAAM team in 2004. She employed a unique version of massage to successfully counter the effects of 3,000 miles of unrelenting abuse. Contact Morrris at sue97330@hotmail.com and Libby at (541) 517-7812.


As you near the 300-mile mark of your long anticipated race all systems appear, go! Your legs feel strong, your breathing is controlled and your energy is good. There's just this little twinge in the back of your neck... An hour later your legs still feel ready for another couple thousand miles, but your head feels like a bowling ball and the best you can do is stare down at your front wheel. Meet Shermer's Neck!

Michael Shermer grudgingly gave his name to this malady during the 1983 RAAM on his approach to Harrier, IL, nearly 2,000 miles into the race. His head felt heavy and the back of his neck was increasingly sore. He described it as, "a quick melt down." His head dropped, making it impossible for him to look up. Cradling his chin in the palm of one hand with his elbow on the padding of his aerobars, he supported his head well enough to finish the race. Despite excruciating pain during the event, his neck was back to normal within two days.

In the 21 years since Shermer experienced the first reported case of Shermer's Neck, countless other ultra-cyclists have had the same problem. Shermer's Neck typically starts between 300 and 1,000 miles into the race. In all cases the onset is sudden. From the time of first pain and weakness, the neck usually gives out within two to three hours. Symptoms always start in the back of the neck. The head feels heavy and the cyclist can't look up without assistance from a mechanical device. Once a cyclist gets Shermer's Neck, it is unlikely to leave for the remainder of the race.

[music man]

I thought we were talking about the neck hurting, but now I went back and read it and realized that he said back and neck. :oops:

But My original point still remains, yes a motorcycle helmet might not weigh much (I think mine weighs 2-3 pounds but the actual weight is really a moot point) but a 2-3 pound helmet (or less for sake of argument) after a 2-3 hour motorcycle ride will feel like a 20 pound weight driving into your neck and yes your shoulders, and you can do the math for a longer ride (it doesn't get lighter feeling again, trust me).

[mrlmd1]

Alan - Shermer's neck is NECK pain, not between the shoulder blades as you describe. Look at the pictures in that article and you'll see the posterior NECK muscles. That pain comes from being bent over forward, with those neck muscles then having to support the weight of the head and keeping the neck from flexing forward from the weight. Like the support cables in a construction crane that raise and lower the angle of the main beam that picks up the weight. That's totally different than what you describe, pain between the shoulder blades. Those are different muscles. It's like true/true, and unrelated.
Somehow you are in a position tensing your rhomboid and trapezius muscles - look them up on Google or Wikepedia. They attach between the shoulder blades and your vertebral column. Those are what is cramping up in you, NOT your neck, not Shermer's either.
I don't want to argue with you about this, but I do know more of this than you do. So listen and learn as I'm trying to help solve your problem, or do and believe what you want. You say you are sitting relatively upright, but not completely, and that you do lean forward, and do tuck under the shield. That's it, right there. Your trapezius is supporting and suspending your back which means it is supporting your upper body weight. If you stay in that position for hours, that muscle starts to hurt, it's not in your neck. OK? Change your posture to more upright, it'll go away. Stay like that for hours at a time, it'll hurt. Very simple. You may have to sit forward more, move your bars back, and stop leaning forward on the bike. Also with wide bars you may be using those 2 upper back muscles to hang on with and to steer with instead of your arm muscles. It's all ergonomics.
Just my free medical advice, yours to do with what you want.

[alanmcorcoran]

I only tucked under the shield for a minute or so, to see what it felt like wind wise.

But the rest of the time, I am leaning forward a bit. Sometimes more so than others. Given the geometry of the bike, I am not sure I can consistently sit straight up. But I can certainly give it a try next time out.

I think I know what my traps are (I work them out with dumbbell shrugs, right? And, for the record, my traps are A) awesome, and B) not what I think hurts.) I looked up rhomboids on Wikipedia (and they sort of look like a continuation of traps...WTF?) but, those DO look like the problem area.

Also, I do appreciate (and listen to) the advice, but you should realize that when a patient argues with you, it's not because we think we know more than you, it's becuase we think you haven't correctly diagnosed our problem. I understand that you have a lot more knowledge in this area, but you will never know my body and my aches and pains as well as I do. I'm not lumping you in with other experiences I've had with doctors, but I will say about half the medical advice I've been given and followed actually has made matters worse, sometimes drastically so. Typically, my worse experiences have resulted from taking a pill instead of focusing on what caused my pain in the first place. (So I'm glad you did not recommend I pop a few Advil!)

Originally, my assumption is that my (rhomboids?) are too weak and perhaps I could strengthen them. Maybe that is not possible or practical. I will see if I can alter my position on the bike (I also suffer a bit from habit - 15 years of "flat back" positioning on the bicycle - a position akin to laying on the gas tank and cranking your head out straight - guess I have to get away from anything remotely close to that now that I'm not using my legs to make the thing go.)

Anybody using ape bars?

[alanmcorcoran]

Originally Posted by Moedad

I met Mike Shermer in Solvang once when I was there for the Solvang Century. I used to get the same pain in the neck/upper shoulder blades you're talking about on long rides too. I would stretch my muscles by tucking my chin down to my chest (when I had a clear road ahead). I haven't experienced any neck pain yet on either motorcycle. Then again, I haven't done anything over two hundred miles yet either. Gotta fix that.

Thanks Moe - you get the prize for the first person to actually answer my original question! In addition to sitting more upright, I will try to do the chin tuck (guess I'll have to do it quick, or while I am eating a nutritious McDonald's Big and Tasty Meal.)

FYI - I typically start to get the cramps at about 200 miles. As a former century (and one double century!) rider, (plus three marathons) I've gotten used to enduring non-fatal discomfort for lots of hours on the road. Thought I might be giving that up though with the motor and everything. Good news is, the worst motorcycle seat is like a feather bed compared to the best bicycle seat.

Mr. OCHoosier was a great riding companion, a wonderful person (and not bad looking either!) The three of us need to hook up with "Crazy Legs" BusyWeb and get into some real trouble out there! (We all have migrated to non-GZ's too!)

[mrlmd1]

Well good, now at least we're on the same page or chapter in the anatomy book. Like before this you were dealing with rough idling by adjusting the thermostat. (Just kidding (?)), Now if you know where the problem comes from, you may be able to solve it. Maybe just get off the bike at 198 miles and walk around for 5 min to loosen up.

[Sarris]

Make sure you're not gorilla gripping the bars while riding. It's an easy habit to get into that'll give you a pain every time. Relax while riding. I also rotated my bars forward on both bikes slightly. This position stretches you out a bit more and gets the bars out of your lap. (the most common "stock" cruiser setting)

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by alanmcorcoran

Anybody using ape bars?

Nobody but YOU!

The more you talk, the more I think that might be contributing to the problem.

Yours aren't monkey tall but sure do look monkey WIDE.
Maybe you just need to S T R E T C H your arms a bit. :roll:

[Moedad]

Originally Posted by alanmcorcoran

In addition to sitting more upright, I will try to do the chin tuck...FYI - I typically start to get the cramps at about 200 miles. As a former century (and one double century!) rider, (plus three marathons) I've gotten used to enduring non-fatal discomfort for lots of hours on the road. Thought I might be giving that up though with the motor and everything. Good news is, the worst motorcycle seat is like a feather bed compared to the best bicycle seat.

I trained for aand rode in a number of centuries, and I know exactly what you're talking about, neck-wise and seat wise. I used reach up and put a hand on the back of my helmet and physically bend my head down to stretch my muscles better. It helped most when I'd let go of the bars and sit up straight and do it, but that wasn't always practical. For me the cramping was a "V" with the point being mostly centered between my shoulder blades and the arms extending up to each side of the base of my neck. It was something that a part of every long ride, like standing on the pedals to give my butt a break. As far motorcycle seats vs. bicycle seats, I can't ever imagine 8 hours on a motorcycle seat would come anywhere close to 8 hours on a bicycle seat as far as pain goes, not to mention the occasional inverted penis.

Mr. OCHoosier was a great riding companion, a wonderful person (and not bad looking either!) The three of us need to hook up with "Crazy Legs" BusyWeb and get into some real trouble out there! (We all have migrated to non-GZ's too!)

Let's do it!