Pushing on the pegs to help you lean

[mr. softie]

I didn't mean to imply I ride around with the bike leaned over and my upper body straight up! :lol:

I scrape my pegs a lot more on the GZ than I ever did on any of my other bikes. Actually my boot heel touches first! That reminds me to start leaning more with my body real quick. I never owned a cruiser style before. I think the pegs are just real close to the ground on this bike. That and there are a lot of tight twisty hilly roads around here. :2tup:

[dhgeyer]

My opinion is that learning to turn by leaning your body, or by putting weight on a peg, is forming a very bad habit. While either of these techniques will work on a light bike, they will have very little effect if any on a heavier machine. A lot of people get killed because they migrate from a small bike to a very large one (like that Harley they always wanted) and can't steer the bigger bike. They hit a curve and run off the road or into a guardrail. It happens all the time, and in most cases it's because they don't fundamentally understand how a motorcycle is controlled.

Countersteering is how a motorcycle is controlled at riding speeds. Period. Yes, it's easy to oversteer the GZ, but learning improper technique is not the answer.

Leaning does have its place. Racers lean into a turn so that the bike can turn more sharply with less lean. Not a technique most of us should need, I hope. Doing very tight maneuvers at slow speeds you do essentially the opposite, so as to get the bike to lean more and still keep overall balance. This is taught in the MSF Basic Rider Course. That technique is useful, but only if you're trying to do a U-turn on a narrow street, or practicing tight turns in a parking lot at very slow speeds.

For normal riding situations, learn to countersteer and rely on that totally. When/if you move to a heavier bike, you will be able to control it.

There is a lot written about the proper path of travel through a turn/curve. MSF teaches outside-inside-outside path of travel, and this is the conventional wisdom. Racers do this if you watch races at all. David Hough in his writings advocates a delayed apex in order to avoid running wide if the curve runs longer than expected.

I have tried for years to make this technique work for me on the road, with, I must admit, limited success. I have pretty much abandoned this bit of conventional wisdom, for several reasons.

1. The basic reason for doing this is to gain a traction advantage, so as to avoid sliding out at a given speed. Or, from a racer's point of view, to maximize the speed at which one can get through a turn. I don't race. There is no need for this technique if one enters a curve at a sensible speed. And by that I mean a speed at which you can slow down or stop if the radius of the curve changes, or if there is an unexpected road or traffic hazard. To me, a curve isn't any different than a straight line in one respect: don't outdrive the distance you can see the road surface and react.

2. Unlike the race course, curves on a road, at least an unfamiliar road, are an unknown quantity. You are completely guessing how far the curve is going to go, and therefor how much to delay the apex. After a while it just gets silly to try.

3. On a left hand curve, particularly a blind left hand curve, the outside-inside-outside path of travel puts you near the centerline, right at the point where an oncoming driver, if said driver misjudged and is running wide, will kill you.

4. In the real world, any speed/traction advantage the outside-inside-outside path gives you is more often than not outweighed by other factors, such as variations in road condition, camber, blind hills, oncoming traffic, and so on.

I do believe that entering a turn/curve cautiously, from the outside (for visibility) is the best approach. After that, I pay more attention to where I want to be in my lane for other reasons.

[alanmcorcoran]

Mr. Geyer,

I enjoyed reading your post. I must admit I'm not comfortable agreeing with someone that takes issue with David Hough, but I think your observations re countersteering agree with my experience. I am one of those people who went from a very small bike to a very large one (although, not a Harley) and, despite having my head filled with lots of info, ultimately just really went with what felt natural, and that is countersteering. In fact, I didn't realize this until recently. I used to think a lot about what I was doing, how far I was leaning, how fast I was going, where I was on the road, etc. etc. But now I devote most of my attention to looking out for road hazards, developing traffic situations and other vehicles. I really don't think about driving much at all. I make the curves, and often at far greater speeds than I did when I was "thinking" about them. It's basically like riding a bicycle except I don't have to pedal.

One other thing I have "learned" by osmosis: using the throttle to maintain centrifugal force. Or something like that. I'm not sure that is the right word, but, basically, the countersteer and lean and all the rest of it benefits from being under power. Power keeps the bike striving to stay upright. I always power out of a curve.

I enjoy riding a lot more now that it mostly just comes naturally. For what it's worth, I wasn't sure what the pushing on the pegs was really about. I have floorboards and my feet mostly just sit on them, except when I deliberately use my legs as an extension of the suspension (like going over a speed bump or a pothole.) Again, perhaps some of these techniques are appropriate for racing or expert level riding.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by dhgeyer

My opinion is that learning to turn by leaning your body, or by putting weight on a peg, is forming a very bad habit. .

OK, without even reading the rest of your post, I have to comment on THAT statement alone.
On both points, you are in a tiny minority, so much so that I think it is safe to say you are wrong on both points.

To become a really proficient rider, you need to master ALL the options for getting the bike to go where you want it to. Shifting your weight on the pegs is not an option with a cruiser style bike but leaning certainly IS.......and it is important because the more the rider leans, the less the bike has to.

(Now to read the rest of your post and see if I need to come back and edit.) :roll:

Originally Posted by dhgeyer

Countersteering is how a motorcycle is controlled at riding speeds. Period.

You quote several good references later in your message; why do you think YOU know better that all the "experts" in the world ?? Clue: you don't.

You are, of course, free to experss an opinion but this "That's how it is .....PERIOD" stuff is just crap. Sorry.

[mr. softie]

Plus on a standard or sport-tour/sport bike etc moving more of your weight to the pegs lowers the the whole COG and helps suspension compliance. As for counter-steering, I like to initiate the turn with the required pressure on the inside bar-end to get the bike to the desired lean angle, and then use the throttle and some body lean (if necessary) to control my line, keeping a light neutral touch on the bars through the turn. More gas tightens the radius, less widens it. Pressure on the outside bar stands the bike back up when desired or needed. Pushing on the outside peg can help you push the inside bar when riding at high speeds in situations where you want to initiate the turn very quickly. Every turn is different, that is one of the things that make riding so much fun. With each ride our skills and enjoyment increase as we become more "at one" with our bike, and less like a fleshy lump clinging to its back for dear life.

[dhgeyer]

Yes, I did forget to say that the throttle has an effect on steering - powering on tends to straighten the bike up, slowing down tends to make the bike "dive" into the turn more. At slow speeds this is more significant and can be very important. In very tight maneuvers, adding power quickly can save you from a fall if you lean too far at too slow a speed.

I have spent a lifetime being quite comfortable disagreeing with conventional wisdom if it directly contradicts my experience. And, yes, I can be opinionated. Bear that in mind when you read what I write, as at my age I am unlikely to change. Bear in mind also that conventional wisdom is not always correct. What we all understand to be the truth changes all the time as people learn more. When I first learned to ride in the early sixties, the conventional wisdom was that if you used the front brake much at all, you would either slide out or go right over the handlebars. Needless to say, that is not the conventional wisdom anymore.

I will still say that, while other methods may have some effect, and some people can use them, the best way to control steering on a motorcycle at riding speeds, particularly a large motorcycle, is with the handlebars, and (to this extent I stand corrected), to a degree, the throttle. My opinion, which is just that, an opinion, is that, other than in racing or slow speed tight maneuvering, leaning is not the best way to control a motorcycle. Period.

I also believe that referring to anyone's post, or opinion, as "crap" is a poor way to communicate a point of view. There are more civilized, respectful, and effective ways to express disagreement.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by dhgeyer

leaning is not the best way to control a motorcycle. Period.

I also believe that referring to anyone's post, or opinion, as "crap" is a poor way to communicate a point of view. There are more civilized, respectful, and effective ways to express disagreement.

It does, however, get the point across in an unambiguous fashion, doesn't it ??
Well, maybe not......since you insist on doing it again.
I guess that means that you think being dense and stubborn is "civilized, respectful and effective" ? Some would respectufully disagree with that too. :roll:

And I could use the fact that I'm over 60 as an excuse for acting like a tard.....but I won't because that would be a cop out. :neener:

If you really want to see how effective leaning can be, try riding with NO HANDS sometime.
While an "amateur" would be ill-advised to try anything more than sweeping turns that way, professional stunt riders can do things without touching the bars that normal riders can't do using ALL the controls.

The fact that YOU don't feel comfortable using leaning as a steering input doesn't mean that everybody is that way. Whatever works for you, especially at OUR age is just peachy fine for YOU. That doesn't mean that it is appropriate for you to be "preaching" it to others.

Just exactly what did you hope to accomplish by dropping your little bomb here in the first place ?? It smacks somewhat of a TROLL.

And I know you are probably too OLD, with brain too shriveled to grasp this but.......do you know that what really MAKES the bike turn is the LEAN that results from the gyroscopic force on the spinning front wheel when you push on the bars ????

No, never mind. I'm done.

[Water Warrior 2]

dhgeyer, please get a copy of Proficient Motorcycling. Read it, practice the lessons. You will change some if not most of your firmly held opinions. You will be a better rider and a safer rider. A lot of us old guys survived the streets by sheer luck for too long. I am one of them. After a proper riding course and reading David Hough's publications I am a far better rider than I ever thought possible. I try to improve everytime I ride. Recently I have been leaning my body into curves and keeping the bike more upright. This works very well and my speed can be far greater than it was in the past. No, not advocating speeding in general either. Just saying training and practice can make a bike and rider a fine tuned couple going in the same direction.

[dhgeyer]

I'm not going to reply to the insults. I do not believe that they reflect on me.

I have all three of the books David L. Hough wrote, and have read them all. More than once. I have subscribed to "Motorcycle Consumer News" for many years, and read all of the skill and health related articles every month. I have taken the MSF Basic Rider Course three times. I have taken the Experienced Rider Course once. I have taken the far more extensive course required to be a Rider Coach for the Basic Rider Course. I only did that job for a short time, but I did it.

Quote from _Proficient Motorcycling_ by David L. Hough, page 49, fourth paragraph:

"Leaning can be initiated by a number of different factors, including road camber, crosswind, rider's body English, and steering the handlebars.. The most powerful factor in leaning is steering the handlebars, so I'll focus on that."

This quote comes from the section entitled "What Makes It Turn?". Following this paragraph is a fairly lengthy and somewhat technical treatise on how leaning turns the bike. Interesting reading. I don't recall anywhere in David Hough's writing where he advocates using the footpegs or body English to steer the machine through a curve or a corner, or any exercises he outlines that would practice this technique.

I am pretty familiar with the MSF curricula, and I know that at no time do they advocate using leaning to turn the machine, except as I noted above: racers lean in so as to decrease lean angle and avoid scraping pegs, and leaning out of the turn in very slow maneuvers allows leaning the bike more (thus turning sharper) without upsetting balance. Other than that, the MSF courses teach and emphasize countersteering. Period.

Stunt and race riders do lots of things I can't and have no desire to do. They do these things on fairly light motorcycles. I never said that you can't control a light bike that way. I just don't think it's a good habit to get into for anyone who plans on migrating to a heavier machine, where countersteering is by far the most effective way to steer. The MSF evidently agrees with me.

I am done with this thread. I have stated my opinion. I have cited I think reliable sources. I'm not going to fight with or insult anyone. Not my style.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by dhgeyer

where countersteering is by far the most effective way to steer.

HOW you say things is important. IF you had said that in the beginning, there never would have been any arguement ......nor would there ever have been any insults.

What you DID say was:" Countersteering is how a motorcycle is controlled at riding speeds." and some other statements indicating that nothing else should even be considered .....which is somewhat different than where you ended up.

Your demeanor INVITES strong responses (insults).
THAT is your style, or at least it certainly was in your contribution to this thread.